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Post by lemur on Feb 15, 2009 17:33:12 GMT -5
National Review did a timely article about great fictional romances, and Niles and Daphne made the list, alongside classics like Elizabeth and Darcy. The writer, John O'Sullivan, finishes by saying: So grow up, Romeo and Juliet. And drop dead, Tristan and Isolde. With Niles and Daphne we are laughing all the way to a happy ending. What do you guys reckon? Do N&D deserve to be in such illustrious company? (I think: pre get-together? Yes. Post get-together? Not so much.)
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Post by louise on Feb 15, 2009 18:25:34 GMT -5
National Review did a timely article about great fictional romances, and Niles and Daphne made the list, alongside classics like Elizabeth and Darcy. The writer, John O'Sullivan, finishes by saying: So grow up, Romeo and Juliet. And drop dead, Tristan and Isolde. With Niles and Daphne we are laughing all the way to a happy ending. What do you guys reckon? Do N&D deserve to be in such illustrious company? (I think: pre get-together? Yes. Post get-together? Not so much.) Just an initial response because so far I've only read John O'Sullivan's article. My first reaction was to be amused, but I think he does have a point. BTW I laughed at the beginning of his piece because it was a bout of flu that got him on a marathon Frasier watching kick. That's exactly how I got hooked. I want to quote two sections of the article. Much of the credit must go to the writers, who manage to combine farce and poignancy in exactly the right proportions in scene after scene. I agree with this but, I would add to that the beautiful acting of David Hyde Pierce in particular, who is the absolute master when it comes to turning on a dime from farce to poignancy. I hear echoes of Wodehouse, Rattigan, Coward, Feydeau, Preston Sturges, Samson Raphaelson, and Anouilh, but none strongly enough to dent the brilliant contemporary originality of the scripts.Yes, so do I hear the echoes, and it's exalted company to be in, but totally agree that the scripts' brilliance is in their originality. Does this raise the Niles Daphne romance to the heights suggested by John O'Sullivan? He makes some good arguments. Maybe my hesitation is due to bias, ie not taking comedy as seriously as drama, If we accept that a romance with in a comedy has the same validity as a romance within a drama then yes, Niles/Daphne does measure up. I would agree with you though Lemur, yes, pre get together, not so much post get together, but with occasional glimpses in later seasons. |
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Post by Jules on Feb 16, 2009 6:20:24 GMT -5
Well, you all know what I'm gonna say don't you? I pissed off enough people on a Certain Other Forum by saying the N/D thing just never ever worked for me, but I guess there's nowt wrong with saying it again. It just always seemed contrived to me. So many sitcoms fall back on the will-they/won't-they romance as a device ( Friends, Caroline in the City, Will and Grace, Becker, etc etc), I would sort of have expected more originality from the Frasier guys. And I think they may have thought so too, as if when they wrote this aspect their hearts were never really in it. The same, I think, could be said for DHP, who never seemed to be putting any real conviction into it, especially after the get together. Those awful, passionless kisses he gives her! Poor old JL is giving her best, but frankly, what can she achieve against that glacier-like resistance. His mouth couldn't be tighter closed against any suggestion of tongue if he'd had it riveted shut beforehand. Yes, he's an amazing actor, but no, he totally failed to even try acting here IMO. If the writer of that piece thinks that's romance he's either never been in love or is the worst kisser on the planet!  |
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Post by louise on Feb 16, 2009 6:48:14 GMT -5
Well, you all know what I'm gonna say don't you? I pissed off enough people on a Certain Other Forum by saying the N/D thing just never ever worked for me, but I guess there's nowt wrong with saying it again. It just always seemed contrived to me. So many sitcoms fall back on the will-they/won't-they romance as a device ( Friends, Caroline in the City, Will and Grace, Becker, etc etc), I would sort of have expected more originality from the Frasier guys. And I think they may have thought so too, as if when they wrote this aspect their hearts were never really in it. The same, I think, could be said for DHP, who never seemed to be putting any real conviction into it, especially after the get together. Those awful, passionless kisses he gives her! Poor old JL is giving her best, but frankly, what can she achieve against that glacier-like resistance. His mouth couldn't be tighter closed against any suggestion of tongue if he'd had it riveted shut beforehand. Yes, he's an amazing actor, but no, he totally failed to even try acting here IMO. If the writer of that piece thinks that's romance he's either never been in love or is the worst kisser on the planet! I did catch some of your posts over in that other place and I'm probably going to say the same as others there. I was completely hooked on the Niles/Daphne romance and for me they just had to get together. I am pretty sure DHP never wanted them to get together. I concede that it was eventually a cop out, and that it was felt they had no choice but to get them together as the seasons went on, but it was a cop out I stood up and cheered for. No they didn't work well as a believable couple very often after that, and their differences weren't explored enough. The great romance for me was that one sided unrequited one in earlier seasons, culminating in SBSB. Though I must say only the first time round. I never watch that now. One of my favourite scenes ever was at the end of Mixed Doubles when Niles and Daphne are in the singles bar and they are wondering how it might have been if they had met there. "I love you too Daphne" never fails to choke me up. DHP at his very best. I know we are never going to agree fully on this Jules. I'm just a romantic ball of mush and I don't care. How's that for an intellectual conclusion?! ;D |
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Post by Jules on Feb 16, 2009 8:09:20 GMT -5
I like romance too. I love Brief Encounter, and Sleepless in Seattle and An Affair to Remember. It's not the romance I have a problem with, it's the fact it's done so badly! I really want to ask DHP what his problem was with the kissing thing. Maybe I'll do that when I stage door next |
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Post by louise on Feb 16, 2009 9:52:08 GMT -5
I like romance too. I love Brief Encounter, and Sleepless in Seattle and An Affair to Remember. It's not the romance I have a problem with, it's the fact it's done so badly! I really want to ask DHP what his problem was with the kissing thing. Maybe I'll do that when I stage door next He he! re the stage door question! And by strange coincidence I watched all three of these movies over the Christmas period. Must say none of the above movies would be the same for me without the music. Maybe there should have been a piano concerto or sweeping strings for Niles and Daphne.  |
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Post by lemur on Feb 16, 2009 18:02:53 GMT -5
Well, you all know what I'm gonna say don't you? I pissed off enough people on a Certain Other Forum by saying the N/D thing just never ever worked for me, but I guess there's nowt wrong with saying it again. It just always seemed contrived to me. So many sitcoms fall back on the will-they/won't-they romance as a device ( Friends, Caroline in the City, Will and Grace, Becker, etc etc), I would sort of have expected more originality from the Frasier guys. And I think they may have thought so too, as if when they wrote this aspect their hearts were never really in it. Aww, harsh. Pre-get together, I thought it was one of the most delish aspects of the show. A great vein of comedy through pretty much every episode, as well as providing the odd heart-stopping moment of DHP poignancy as muffin mentioned. And a basically tired device was given an intriguing twist by the fact that Niles was married to (and still loved) Maris. I also have a huge weakness for S7. Mainly because I like both Donny and Mel and thought that was a brave step for the writers to take, to create good characters who would suffer if Niles and Daphne got together. Of course, S8 spoiled that a bit - Donny and Mel were written out as though they were nuisances, and Niles/Daphne was apparently set aside as being DONE, with precious little relationship development happening after the get-together. Heh. I've never seen this expressed quite so bluntly by someone who loves DHP. I agree that he never seemed that into it. I wonder to what degree he tried. Always thought his kisses with Jane Adams were a lot more convincing. |
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Post by jenniferemt3 on Feb 21, 2009 9:09:37 GMT -5
I thought their relationship was great in all the seasons. I even love season 8. I also thought he did fine with the kiss. Don't jump me here but I have to defend DHP, I think it might have been a character choice for him to kiss her the way he did. It seems like maybe he percieved Niles to be a more subtle kisser rather than one who sucks the womans face off. It also could have been to do with the characters past with Maris. Since Maris wasn't very romantic as we have heard, maybe that's how he got used to kissing her and so maybe he still kisses like that with Daphne. The only real problem I had with the show was that Daphne was so much happier and relaxed in the first 5 seasons it seems like. Whereas it seems like in the last 6 seasons she became way more serious, and moody.
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Post by starz1984 on Mar 4, 2009 21:20:54 GMT -5
I think it was romantic to finally see Nile and Daphne together. I hid it for so long and then Niles had the courage to do what a lot of people can't do. I give him credit for that. I hated how Daphne got her heart broken every time Mel came into the picture. But when Niles told her off, I was thinking, "niles and Daphne, finally together."
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Post by jenniferemt3 on Mar 4, 2009 23:12:16 GMT -5
me to starz, I loved it when Niles told Mel off and him and Daphne were finally free to be togeher
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