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Post by Jules on Mar 5, 2009 3:11:55 GMT -5
But put yourselves in Mel's place. Or Donny's.
It's your wedding day and the girl you're about to marry dumps you without a word of explanation or apology and runs off with another guy.
Or you're newly married and attending a wedding with your husband when someone runs in to tell you he's driven off with the bride.
C'mon girls, are you gonna think, 'shucks, how romantic?' Would you really be any less miffed than Mel or Donny were? Can you blame them for feeling betrayed and outraged? I mean they were weren't they? Niles and Daphne behave like selfish, adolescent emotional thugs over the whole thing, which is another reason I dislike the N/D get together as much as I do.
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Post by starz1984 on Mar 5, 2009 8:51:06 GMT -5
I'm sure I'd be heart broken also but I wouldn't torture him.
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Post by Jules on Mar 5, 2009 9:46:26 GMT -5
I'm sure I'd be heart broken also but I wouldn't torture him. Hmmmm, would you be heartbroken? I don't think I would be. I'd be heartbroken if the guy I loved didn't love me back, or if he died, or if he fell in love with someone else and told me about it in honest and decent fashion. But if my husband dumped me within a few weeks of being married, in the most publicly humiliating way he possibly could, I wouldn't be heartbroken, I'd be fucking angry, and indignant and disgusted, and I think most people who'd been dumped in such a fashion would too. I mean, let's face it, Niles behaves like a total shit, doesn't he? And does Mel 'torture' him? She does her best to humiliate him certainly, but he had humiliated her, and abandoned her, so maybe her behaviour is not much more than he deserved? I know the writers tried to portray N and D as victims of these two meanies, but I find it really difficult to buy any such thing, and it seemed a bit of a morally bankrupt and cheesy line for them to take TBH. I just feel poor old Mel gets a raw deal. And Donny possibly even more so. Totally nice, sweet, loving guy, gets dumped on his wedding day by a woman who doesn't even have the grace to explain and apologise before just driving off with another guy and leaving him at the altar, abandoned and alone. Daphne and Niles behave like narcissistic, selfish jerks, and somehow we are supposed to think it's all great. I never have been able to get that.
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Post by jenniferemt3 on Mar 5, 2009 10:53:44 GMT -5
Before I start, yes people I know it's just a fictional show. Also I do believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so please don't think I'm being a jerk here for stating mine. However, I don't think it's so much that the writers want you to think it's all honkey dorey that N/D did what they did but rather they chose not to let the audience off easy on this one. Let's face it they force you to choose sides here instead of making it easy for you to just say oh N/D are finally together yippee. Instead they make you angry with them yet still love them at the same time. They force you to think about what happened and again do not make it easy to choose sides. Think of it like the characters in The Cherry Orchard, Chekhov writes the characters in such a way that you can't easily hate them or love them. It's like he makes you justify why feel the way you do about the particular characters. For instance you spend the play thinking why don't they wise up and get off their butts and save the orchard and quit sitting around whining about it, yet at the same time you can't help but feel sorry for them and like them. Although I may be totally wrong, to me it seems like this is what the writers have done here. I mean think about it if they had never met Mel or Donny and had come together on their own over a romantic meal like most couples then it wouldn't be as memorable or stir controversy. By having them come together the way they did it was very memorable and got people talking about it and along the way probably also generated even more interest in the show drawing in more viewers. I mean if this really happened to me then yeah I would definitely be pissed, especially if I was Donny. However I don't feel that much sympathy for Mel because Niles would have left her anyway. She was a real b***** to Niles a lot of the time and to everyone. She never loved him, she just wanted to control him and have some cute rich blue blooded guy hanging on her arm to impress her friends. Let's face it she made him miserable just like Maris although he wanted to make it work so he tried to pretend she didn't. After they split Mel really tried to make him miserable just to get revenge instead of moving on. I mean yeah she was entitled to her anger and I don't deny that but She was a real b**** in the way she went about dealing with it. While I admit I do feel a little sympathy for the way Niles left her, It's not like he cheated on her or something. He and Daphne both went back and told Donny and Mel that they loved each other instead of just running away like they almost did. I do think it could have been handled better but let's face it if you were in love with another man wouldn't you want to tell you fiancee before you got married rather than after. Also in their defense they did feel bad about the way they left Mel and Donny. I do feel a lot more sorry for Donny because he was good to Daphne however it was probably better that they split now rather than end in messy divorce later. Overall in an ideal situation, yeah Niles and Daphne would have handled it differently but put yourself in their shoes for the moment. Your madly in love with each other only the other person doesn't know it. Considering they didn't find out that about each other's feelings until that night I think they handled it as best they could. I mean it would have been a lot worse if Daphne had married Donny and then in a few days or longer decided she couldn't live without Niles anymore and then divorced Donny. It wouldn't have been fair to Niles or Daphne. It especially would not have been fair to Mel or Donny for Niles and Daphne to continue stringing them along making them think your in love with them and then breaking their heart later. It would have been a lot more painful for all of them. I do have to say though Jules that you make a very good point and I think it's fascinating how we all feel differently about this point. I think it's really cool that we all have different opinions and can all discuss them with each other. Also sorry this post is so long.
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Post by starz1984 on Mar 6, 2009 10:44:30 GMT -5
I'm sure I'd be heart broken also but I wouldn't torture him. Hmmmm, would you be heartbroken? I don't think I would be. I'd be heartbroken if the guy I loved didn't love me back, or if he died, or if he fell in love with someone else and told me about it in honest and decent fashion. But if my husband dumped me within a few weeks of being married, in the most publicly humiliating way he possibly could, I wouldn't be heartbroken, I'd be fucking angry, and indignant and disgusted, and I think most people who'd been dumped in such a fashion would too. I mean, let's face it, Niles behaves like a total shit, doesn't he? And does Mel 'torture' him? She does her best to humiliate him certainly, but he had humiliated her, and abandoned her, so maybe her behaviour is not much more than he deserved? I know the writers tried to portray N and D as victims of these two meanies, but I find it really difficult to buy any such thing, and it seemed a bit of a morally bankrupt and cheesy line for them to take TBH. I just feel poor old Mel gets a raw deal. And Donny possibly even more so. Totally nice, sweet, loving guy, gets dumped on his wedding day by a woman who doesn't even have the grace to explain and apologise before just driving off with another guy and leaving him at the altar, abandoned and alone. Daphne and Niles behave like narcissistic, selfish jerks, and somehow we are supposed to think it's all great. I never have been able to get that. Actually fine. I won't be heart broken *though I actually would* How would you know what I would feel. Mel tortured him and that wouldn't right. She knew it but she didn't want to let him go until nile finally told her to stop. I would have been the same way. I wouldn't let her push me around anymore. Come on, no one would.
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Post by lemur on Mar 10, 2009 7:24:24 GMT -5
I feel I have to step in and defend Mel. I always quite liked her, because she's interesting and flawed, and yes, a bit messed up, but she did love Niles and didn't deserve to be dumped like that. I think it's too easy to say she's "Maris all over again" (which even Frasier does at one point), because though she is high-strung, she's nothing near as high-strung as Maris, and though she is manipulative, it's usually for Niles's own good (as she perceives it), rather than Maris's blatantly selfish manipulation.
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Post by Cazzette on Aug 7, 2009 17:57:51 GMT -5
Hi I am so shocked to hear poeplet think so madly of Niles and Daphne, there are many reasons why there post together is good. one reason is it allowed Niles to be seen less of a snob and go for someone who well isn't in his socail background. Also it menat that we could see Daphne in a differnt ways though it is odd how she has more attuide problems but its still character developement. I also have to say Mel was a cow to veryone she was bossy,mean and just too concerned about cleanseness (sorry for bad spelling). Mel never did cared for him or saw a beauitful man that he is or she would never have have made him have botex or remove his mole, he loved D when she was large and she loved him the same and also i couldn't take it anymore I was getting very frustriacated I was like dump Maris or Mel or however it is and just grab d and kiss her, which is all I wanted. Though why is he sp tight liped I have never noticed maybe he finds it difficult to express his love phyicaly which is a shame for D i susspose.
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Post by lemur on Aug 8, 2009 0:17:12 GMT -5
I also have to say Mel was a cow to veryone she was bossy,mean and just too concerned about cleanseness (sorry for bad spelling). Mel never did cared for him or saw a beauitful man that he is or she would never have have made him have botex or remove his mole ... Awww, Mel did care for him. Remember what she said to Daphne in 'To Thine Old Self Be True' when Maris was threatening her: How insane is this woman? She thinks I'd give up Niles to protect my practice? I'm crazy about him. The way he laughs, the way he gets that little glint in his eye when he's about to say something clever. But do you know why I love him the most? It's like there are all these things that he could be if he could just trust someone enough to help him unlock it all. And if I could be that person - you know, that safe person in his life - well, the more I know him, the more I know that's all I want to be. That is, IMHO, one of the most touching speeches ever on Frasier. Mel is definitely a flawed character, but she has good aspects too and that makes her quite real to me. When you stop thinking of Mel as a villain, the N/D story becomes a lot more interesting.
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Post by Cazzette on Aug 11, 2009 5:24:43 GMT -5
Hi very good example off showing a nicer side of Mels character but wasn't that the same one where d starts drinking heavily Eddie kicked out because of Mels horriable behaviour and also her caring caused more aurgument with his brother. If she relly wanted to be that safe person then I think she should have been more considert. I agree she is an interresting person just not a nice one at the start to the very end.
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tihocan
Confirmed DHP fan
Posts: 44
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Post by tihocan on Aug 22, 2009 23:30:00 GMT -5
The Niles/Daphne relationship is one of the things that really got me into Frasier. I was so happy when they got together, but after reading some of the other posts, I guess I can say that maybe they should've gotten together in a different fashion than leaving Donny and Mel.
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